01:50 Donald Trump I read someplace that the networks were 97 percent against me. 01:55 I got 97 percent negative, and yet I won it easily. 01:59 I won all seven states, popular, but won everything. 02:03 And... 02:04 If they're 97% against, they give me only bad publicity or press. 02:11 I mean, they're getting a license. 02:13 I would think maybe their license should be taken away. 02:17 It will be up to Brendan Carr. 03:02 Jeffrey Goldberg Well, um... 03:04 Just so you understand, so as you know, David Letterman was coming to do an interview here. 03:12 But given the events of the last 18 hours or so, we asked him if he would come out a little bit early and talk to me about the events of the last night. 03:21 So David Letterman is going to come out, and Ayad is going to switch places with him. 03:25 Thank you, Ayad. 03:30 Ladies and gentlemen, David Letterman. 03:35 David Letterman How you doing? 03:36 Nice to meet you. 03:37 Thank you very much. 03:38 Thank you. 03:40 Thank you. 03:41 Wait a minute. 03:42 I was hoping there'd be a second wave. 03:43 You're all right. 03:46 Nice to see you. 03:47 Jeffrey Goldberg Yeah, yeah, thanks for doing this. 03:50 David Letterman I was gonna talk about the playwright in the age of AI. 03:53 Jeffrey Goldberg What the hell? 03:54 Yeah, I know, I know. 03:55 We totally flipped the script on you, I'm sorry. 03:58 I'm just gonna stay out here for a few minutes and talk to you about it, and then you're gonna interview your guest. 04:04 Yeah. 04:05 But look, 04:07 We saw what happened last night. 04:08 It follows what happened to Colbert. 04:11 You're the godfather of the genre. 04:15 David Letterman Yes, I am. 04:16 Jeffrey Goldberg Yeah. 04:17 You're the godfather of the genre. 04:19 The great-grandfather. 04:21 I wasn't going there. 04:23 Tell us what you think about what happened last night to Jimmy Kimmel. 04:29 David Letterman Well, this is misery. 04:31 And in the world of somebody who is an authoritarian, maybe a dictatorship, sooner or later, everyone is going to be touched. 04:39 But this is me. 04:40 For 30 years, I did this for a living. 04:43 So I see this happen. 04:44 They took care of Colbert. 04:46 That was rude. 04:46 That was inexcusable. 04:48 The man deserves a great deal of credit. 04:50 He's in the Hall of Fame nine times. 04:52 And to be manipulated like that because the Ellison family didn't want to trouble Donald Trump with this move, so they got rid of him. 05:01 Not only got rid of him, got rid of the whole franchise. 05:03 You're not going to have to worry about anything, Larry. 05:05 It's all gone. 05:07 It's fine. 05:07 Good night. 05:08 And then my good friend Jimmy Kimmel. 05:10 You know, I just... 05:12 I feel bad about this because we all see where this is going, correct? 05:17 It's managed media. 05:19 And it's no good. 05:21 It's silly. 05:21 It's ridiculous. 05:23 And you can't go around firing somebody because you're fearful or trying to suck up to an authoritarian criminal administration in the Oval Office. 05:35 That's just not how this works. 05:44 10 years ago, I was smart enough to cancel myself. 05:50 But the other thing is, the FCC, this guy, Connor. 05:56 Brendan Carr. 05:57 Brendan Carr, yes. 05:59 So this guy, the FCC, is we can do things the easy way, we can do things the hard way. 06:03 Who is hiring these goons? 06:05 Mario Puzo? 06:07 The FCC, we're not happy until you're not happy, for God's sakes. 06:11 When I was a kid, I was like 20 years old, and I wanted to work at a radio station, so I went to Chicago to the FCC. 06:18 You take a test, you pass the test, you have your third phone radio broadcasting license. 06:24 That's what the FCC does. 06:26 If you're a 50,000 watt clear channel radio station, once a year, they'll come and check your dials to make sure you're not broadcasting at 55,000 watts. 06:35 And God forbid you are, then you get an $8 fine. 06:38 That is the FCC. 06:41 I don't know what is going on here. 06:43 Jeffrey Goldberg Let me ask you this. 06:44 You worked through five or six presidential administrations. 06:49 David Letterman Oh, my God. 06:50 And yes, a whole list. 06:51 It started with Jimmy Carter. 06:53 Jeffrey Goldberg And your first show in the Carter era. 06:55 David Letterman Yes, that's right. 06:56 And then all the way right up through Barack Obama. 06:59 And was there one after that that I worked for? 07:01 When did I leave? 07:01 Jeffrey Goldberg Possibly. 07:02 I don't know, personally. 07:03 When did you? 07:04 Ten years ago, you said. 07:05 Hang on. 07:06 I got a list. 07:08 David Letterman Jimmy Carter, Ronald Reagan, George Bush Sr., Bill Clinton, George Bush II, Barack Obama, yeah. 07:15 And attack these men mercilessly, never once, well, Jimmy Carter, not so much, because what can you say about Jimmy Carter? 07:24 He was just a sweet guy. 07:26 But everybody else, we really went to work on. 07:29 And I can remember Bill Clinton we really went to work on. 07:32 And then it got so, it was like, whoa, this is a gift. 07:37 What are we going to do, Bill Clinton? 07:39 He's out of office after eight years of Bill Clinton. 07:41 And then George Bush came along, and it was easy motoring after that. 07:47 But the point is, beating up on these people, rightly or wrongly, accurately or perhaps inaccurately, in the name of comedy, not once were we squeezed by anyone from any governmental agency, let alone the dreaded FCC. 08:03 Republican, Democrat, never. 08:05 Well, I will say we probably went easy on Barack Obama, because I kind of like the guy. 08:10 Jeffrey Goldberg but never a call from the White House, never an intimation. 08:14 David Letterman No, because everybody sort of understood in the name of humor, in the name of commenting on what's going on in the world, cultural events, why not? 08:23 And by the way, the institution of the President of the United States ought to be bigger than a guy doing a talk show. 08:30 You know, it just really ought to be bigger. 08:32 Jeffrey Goldberg Well, it was really interesting last night, late at night, 08:37 Trump is tweeting or truth socialing from Windsor Castle after a steak dinner hosted by the king of England in doing his late night television show critique. 08:49 It feels like we're living in a simulation when you think about that. 08:53 David Letterman Well, it would be hilarious if it wasn't all leading to something from which we won't recover. 08:58 Jeffrey Goldberg What do you think it's leading to? 09:00 David Letterman I think it's easily... First of all, here's the thing that's up my nose these days. 09:04 By God, we've got to get to work on those midterms. 09:06 Well, I think the midterm elections will be elections in name only. 09:10 I'm sorry. 09:11 The Republicans have raised untold billions of dollars. 09:16 The Democrats, I think, are staggering a bit behind in terms of fundraising. 09:21 Jeffrey Goldberg Let me ask you about the actual joke or commentary that Jimmy Kimmel made the other night. 09:26 It actually was inaccurate. 09:28 I mean, recognizing that he's a comedian, not a journalist. 09:31 David Letterman Yes, exactly right. 09:34 We all make mistakes. 09:35 I mean, good Lord. 09:37 And by the way, 09:38 The condition of the United States of America has not been perfect from the time I was born to this very day and before that. 09:46 We know that. 09:47 The goal is not perfection. 09:49 Mistakes are gonna be made. 09:50 Hopefully it will improve. 09:52 I think, sadly, it's not going to improve. 09:54 I'm not exactly in full mind understanding of what Jimmy said, what he was trying to say, and what mistake was made. 10:01 This is something that was predicted by our president right after Stephen Colbert got walked off. 10:07 So you're telling me that this isn't premeditated at some level. 10:10 Jeffrey Goldberg Well, I mean, he also announced that Jimmy Fallon and Seth Meyers were next. 10:15 And Jimmy Fallon, this is my own view, is not quite as sharp-tongued as Jimmy Fallon. 10:22 David Letterman And why is that, Jeff? 10:23 Why do you think that is? 10:25 No, but... Has something to do with IQ? 10:26 Is that what you're saying? 10:27 Jeffrey Goldberg I am... 10:30 He has a different personality. 10:32 David Letterman He's just a different kind of... By the way, isn't this guy great on Friday nights? 10:37 Jeffrey Goldberg Look at that. 10:39 Thank you very much. 10:41 David Letterman Me and my grandparents really loved him. 10:45 Jeffrey Goldberg I told him he's way too young to watch Washington Week with the Atlantic. 10:51 David Letterman You know, when this thing happened last night, and by the way, I have heard from Jimmy, he was nice enough to text me this morning, and he's sitting up in bed taking nourishment. 10:58 He's gonna be fine. 11:01 But I said to my wife, I said, I don't know what to think or say about this situation. 11:06 I wish in the world, and this is what's great about New York, I wish in the world I could talk to Jeff Goldberg. 11:13 Here I am talking to Jeff Goldberg. 11:15 Jeffrey Goldberg I mean, honest to God, isn't it amazing how these things work? 11:19 It's all serendipity here. 11:22 Keep going on this theme of this dissent. 11:27 Because one of the things I think a lot of us are wondering about, I'm surprised at the number of 11:35 hardcore moves that this administration has made in many, many different directions at once, including dismantling the CDC, as just one example, dismantling USAID in every direction. 11:48 David Letterman You don't like the labor numbers, you fire the person reading the labor numbers. 11:51 Jeffrey Goldberg You fire the person reading the numbers. 11:52 So the question is, it does seem 11:55 and I just want your analysis of this, it does seem that there's a kind of passivity in the country about these things. 12:02 People are saying, well, Jimmy Kimmel did. 12:04 I mean, I have to ask you that question, but Jimmy Kimmel did get it wrong. 12:08 And the company, we heard Mike Pence earlier say, well, look, it's a private company. 12:13 Jimmy Kimmel doesn't have a First Amendment right to work for that company. 12:16 He didn't exactly deal with the question of the pressure put on by the FCC. 12:21 But what is... 12:22 What is your diagnosis? 12:23 What is the red line for the American people who I've believed like having a First Amendment historically and today? 12:35 I mean, I've always offered an exception that people think it's pretty good that you can get to say what you want in America. 12:41 David Letterman So what is going on here? 12:42 Well, I would ask you, what are the determining landmarks here? 12:46 Authoritarianism, how is that different from a dictatorship? 12:49 Does authoritarianism breed dictators? 12:52 Is a dictator a special category? 12:53 Where are we on that progress? 12:55 Because I think we're inexorably headed in that direction. 12:58 So I need you to tell me something encouraging that I can take home that will settle down my wife. 13:05 Jeffrey Goldberg This is not rhetorical. 13:06 I'm asking you. 13:09 Oh, you're asking. 13:10 David Letterman He said shit. 13:12 Oh my God. 13:13 The Atlantic Monthly guy said shit. 13:17 Yes. 13:18 There's your First Amendment, ladies and gentlemen. 13:20 Thank you very much. 13:21 Jeffrey Goldberg Thank you. 13:24 No, as I said to Ayyad, we don't worry about the FCC. 13:28 Look, we don't worry, and I have to say this in all seriousness to a group of people who subscribe to The Atlantic and read The Atlantic. 13:36 There's only two ways to approach. 13:38 I'm not trying to sound like self-righteous or whatever, but I'm not. 13:43 There's only two ways to approach this moment. 13:45 Either you stay true to your mission and just say what you think is true, what you know to be true, or you don't. 13:53 I'm personally very surprised at the large numbers of companies that don't have to fold. 13:58 It's just about money. 13:59 I mean, nobody yet is threatening to send them to the gulag, but the pursuit of money has distorted the reactions of the people who know better, including the people who employ Jimmy Kimmel and Stephen Colbert and, by the way, a newspaper that's based in Washington that we can talk about at another time. 14:21 David Letterman What happened to that rag? 14:26 Jeffrey Goldberg There are only two kinds of owners. 14:28 I mean, we happen to have a good one, but there's two kinds of owners, and they're the owners who don't realize that their one responsibility is to protect the journalists 14:40 to allow them to say exactly what, the whole country is built on this premise. 14:44 David Letterman This is exactly what I'm alluding to. 14:46 There was these two standards of journalism in the United States, the Post and the Times. 14:52 And one could think, okay, these will stabilize, these are people who represent the truth, and if they get it wrong, they apologize and will make changes. 15:00 And now one is gone. 15:03 I have family members who live in the Washington, D.C. area, and you're lucky if you get the crossword and weather out of the Washington Post. 15:14 Jeffrey Goldberg To answer your question briefly, there is no answer. 15:17 What is the bright line between soft authoritarianism and preemptive authoritarianism? 15:25 By the way, the analogy of the boiling frog is actually incorrect. 15:29 Frogs do try to hop out of water, it turns out. 15:32 David Letterman Well, finally we've learned something here today, haven't we? 15:37 Jeffrey Goldberg Every day brings this almost cognitive assault. 15:41 David Letterman How do people, you think, okay, I'm still okay. 15:44 I can still have breakfast. 15:45 I still have a big screen TV, so things are okay. 15:48 At what point do people who should be affected by this as early on, and the people that, and again, things were not good for a huge part of this country, and they're not going to get better for that same group. 16:01 So at what point do the doors open in the mind of, 16:05 average Americans, and they're petrified. 16:09 Jeffrey Goldberg The problem is, as long as there are an abundance of cheap calories, reasonably priced gasoline, and endless video diversion, it's very hard to imagine this country right now sort of saying, wait a second, having a functioning CDC, FDA, USAID, National Weather Service, et cetera. 16:30 This is the main question that I ask, and I think a lot of our journalists at The Atlantic ask, is like, when is this gonna penetrate? 16:37 When is the idea that, like, we've always believed that vaccination was a settled issue in America since the time of George Washington, as I mentioned earlier. 16:47 It turns out that it's not settled. 16:49 That doesn't seem to upset people 16:51 David Letterman I know, this is the great mystery. 16:53 Why aren't people upset by this or half a dozen other things that are upset? 16:57 Jeffrey Goldberg You know what? 16:59 Maybe it's like, and I'm not comparing any one country to another country, but maybe it's like Tahrir Square in Cairo in 2011. 17:07 Nobody thought that was going to happen until it happened. 17:10 And I don't know what the thing is. 17:13 David Letterman This is the Arab Spring. 17:14 The Arab Spring. 17:14 Jeffrey Goldberg I don't know what the thing is. 17:16 You would think that it's when the government fires the people who track Ebola, which is not a partisan issue, you would think that many people would say, you know what, it's probably better to know where the Ebola is. 17:30 And that hasn't happened. 17:31 So we're all waiting to see what the reaction is. 17:34 But we also understand that people in the Trump administration 17:37 David Letterman Let's just say there is an awareness. 17:39 Jeffrey Goldberg By the way, I know that we have to bring out your actual guests. 17:41 David Letterman I'm calling the shots here, pal. 17:46 But let's just say there is an actual awareness beyond what you and I believe and can imagine. 17:51 Let's see everybody is aware. 17:53 What do we do? 17:54 Jeffrey Goldberg Well, look, we still have a free media. 17:59 I mean, we get to say- Do we? 18:01 Well, large swaths of it, yeah, yeah. 18:04 The world's biggest newspaper, the New York Times, is independent of what's happening in Washington. 18:07 How many times has the president sued them? 18:10 I understand that they're under pressure, but again, it comes back to- Well, look at what happened to the Washington Post. 18:15 David Letterman Well, exactly. 18:16 Jeffrey Goldberg No, no, I'm not saying that. 18:17 David Letterman I'm not saying we're not in trouble. 18:18 Jeffrey Goldberg I mean, thank God for your magazine, for God's sakes. 18:21 Thank God, yes. 18:22 I guess. 18:23 That is worthy of a pause. 18:27 And look, we have an independent judiciary. 18:29 What we don't have right now is a legislative branch that is functioning according to the demands of the Constitution. 18:35 That is the biggest troublesome fact. 18:38 But we do have an independent judiciary. 18:40 David Letterman But will you agree that checks and balances, they're pretty anemic now? 18:44 Jeffrey Goldberg I agree that everything is under pressure right now. 18:47 And ultimately, and look, coming back to the Mike Pence interview before, and I hear a lot of things about Mike Pence, and I understand there are a lot of people who disagree with Mike Pence and his worldview. 18:58 I would say this. 19:00 Sometimes a person's whole life can be judged by what they do. 19:07 in one single moment of their life. 19:09 Mike Pence said on that terrible day, nope, this election, this was a free and fair election. 19:16 The results should be ratified. 19:18 I don't care that the person who made me vice president wants to kill me. 19:23 I'm going to do my constitutional duty. 19:26 And I have this hope, and I think you do too. 19:30 Maybe you don't. 19:31 Well, all right. 19:32 I'm sorry. 19:33 I'm sorry, I don't. 19:34 I have this hope that there are many, many more people like Mike Pence. 19:38 We haven't seen enough of them in the current manifestation. 19:42 What are they waiting on? 19:43 That's the question. 19:44 David Letterman And by the way, I'll speak for everybody in this room who has kids. 19:49 I don't so much care about me. 19:50 I've had my fun. 19:52 I got a 21-year-old son. 19:53 I'm worried about him and his family. 19:55 Jeffrey Goldberg And that's completely legitimate. 19:57 And I am now... 20:00 I'm going to leave you so you can do. 20:02 David Letterman It's been fun though, right? 20:03 Jeffrey Goldberg It's been great. 20:04 I appreciate it. 20:05 Thank you for coming to the Atlantic Festival. 20:06 This is a great pleasure for me. 20:08 It's great. 20:09 It's great. 20:10 And now you're going to introduce your guest. 20:12 Thank you very much. 20:14 Thank you. 20:15 Bye.