00:07 Charlie Sykes Welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. 00:08 What an extraordinary day. 00:10 In real time, we're seeing the Trump administration disintegrate. 00:14 You have aides cabinet members resigning. 00:18 You have former allies deserting him. 00:20 A lot of reputation laundering going on out there. 00:24 And of course, Congress is moving, looks like, very rapidly towards impeachment 2.0. 00:30 So we're going to get to all of this. 00:32 It is really a moment that 00:35 I don't know. 00:36 I see Tim Miller joins me. 00:37 You know, Tim, we have been doing this Never Trump stuff for a very long time, and we always knew it was going to end badly. 00:44 So it seems kind of surreal that it's all ending this spectacularly badly. 00:51 You know what I mean? 00:53 Tim Miller Does it seem surreal? 00:55 I guess. 00:56 Charlie Sykes I mean, I think that... Because in real life, in the movies, you always have some spectacular thing ends, you know? 01:02 The guy has a truckload of horse manure dumped on his head, and it's like, oh, that's fantastic. 01:07 But in real life, it's messy. 01:08 You know, it's more nuanced. 01:11 You have the ups and the blacks. 01:12 Tim Miller I'm not sure, you know... 01:14 Well, I'm not sure. 01:15 I think that we have to keep writing it out. 01:16 I mean, look, you know, we have been here and we don't know exactly what things look like a week from now. 01:22 We don't know how things look like a month from now. 01:24 And, you know, I've seen my husband last night. 01:27 You know, he said that this is worse than he expected. 01:30 Yeah. 01:30 And I thought about that for a second. 01:32 I was like, honestly, I don't think that's true for me. 01:34 I mean, I think it's worse than it could have been. 01:37 But, you know, I look back at Lafayette Square. 01:41 And I mean, as horrible of a moment that was, and as un-American as moments that was for the president to, you know, order the tear gassing and rubber bullet grenades at clergy, innocent protesters. 01:55 At that moment, I was deeply concerned that something like what, that the inverse basically of what happened two days ago would happen. 02:03 And that, you know, there would be a shooting at peaceful protesters and 02:08 It's still shocking to see it happen. 02:11 Yeah. 02:12 I just think that this was inevitably where we were going to end up, and that is the source of my rage, which I'm sure we can get to. 02:19 Charlie Sykes Well, okay. 02:20 I want to counter the rage. 02:21 I don't want to discourage the rage, but I want to give you just a counterpoint to it. 02:25 I know you put out a letter to... 02:27 to some of our our listeners yesterday, you know, reminding people that this is and then I this is hard to really think about is that two years ago yesterday, we launched the Bulwark to two years. 02:40 It feels like it's been much, much longer. 02:43 We couldn't possibly have known 02:44 how it was going to play out. 02:46 I mean, when we started the Bulwark, it was just month to month. 02:49 I was just talking to Jim Swift about this a couple of minutes ago. 02:52 And when we first started, it was like, okay, we'll do this for three months after the death of the weekly standard. 02:58 We had no idea what was going to happen. 03:00 And I do think that it is it's important at some point to acknowledge that we're sitting here now watching the complete vindication and the vindication of many of the things we'd been warning about and the defeat of Donald Trump in this rather dramatic fashion. 03:17 I mean, he is gone. 03:19 In fact, he's not only gone, you just see the rats jumping from this sinking ship. 03:23 I mean, the water is churning with all the rats who are jumping from this ship. 03:28 I mean, you had a great tweet yesterday that, you know, that everybody is the bulwark is bulwark online now is, you know, one as as one conservative media outlet after another does their deathbed conversion. 03:40 But, you know, he's going and he's going in disgrace. 03:45 and and i and i think that that's that's something i mean we need to keep the rage going but but also acknowledge i mean tim take a deep breath here we we we beat the mfr he's going i'm taking a deep breath yeah it was a little effort to get people to sign up for the bulwark plus because it is nice to be right you know no right but so here okay i'm taking a deep breath you're right 04:11 Tim Miller You're right. 04:12 And I'll be, boy, nobody will be happier than me on January 20th. 04:16 And frankly, nobody was happier than me on Wednesday morning for people that listened to the next level after the Georgia, surprising Georgia victories, which surprised to me at least. 04:28 And I thought that was an important rebuke of all the things that have been happening. 04:33 Charlie Sykes Let's not go too far ahead, though. 04:34 I just want to go back two years ago when we launched this thing. 04:39 I had forgotten. 04:41 You wrote two days. 04:44 We launched on January 7th, 2019. 04:48 You had a piece two days later. 04:50 Do you remember what your first article for The Bulwark was? 04:54 Tim Miller I do. 04:56 Sarah had called me and said, you guys are doing this new thing, and would I write something? 04:59 And I was mad about something. 05:02 I was mad about Mitt Romney's... 05:05 I was happy about Mitt Romney's op-ed in the Washington Post criticizing Trump, and I was mad that all the... 05:11 All the anti-anti-Trumpers and all the Republican quizlings were criticizing him. 05:16 And so I called Trump a special snowflake that he couldn't take the criticism from Mitt Romney. 05:20 Charlie Sykes Yeah, that's the headline. 05:21 Trump is a special snowflake. 05:22 Now, here's the weird convergence of the stars. 05:25 My first piece in The Bulwark was also about Mitt Romney and that – 05:29 And that op-ed piece and the reaction from folks who are saying, you know, you shouldn't criticize him because he's a man of great character. 05:38 So this was, I think I rolled out the phrase, you know, late stage Trumpism there. 05:42 But so anyway, that was two years ago. 05:45 We want to thank all the people who have contributed, who have listened to us. 05:49 We're nearing 30 million downloads on this podcast since then. 05:53 I think that Bulwark has... 05:55 you know, become something way better than we all expected. 06:00 So here we are at this moment. 06:04 And I, I, I, I, again, the, it's kind of alternatively, alternatively wonderful conversation. 06:13 and terrifying to see this disastrous collapse of this administration is 12 days to go. 06:19 Do you know what that means, by the way? 06:21 As of tomorrow, the Trump presidency has only one Scaramucci to go. 06:24 Only one Scaramucci. 06:26 So where do we want to start on all of this? 06:30 I have to give you kudos. 06:32 You were... 06:33 You are way ahead of the curve, people, of saying we need to impeach this guy again. 06:37 OK, I mean, I came around and said maybe we need to have an emergency impeachment. 06:43 But this thing looks like it's going to happen now, doesn't it? 06:48 Tim Miller Yeah, Charlie. 06:48 Well, I'm happy to start there. 06:51 You've called me. 06:52 Just so you know, as I got on the podcast this morning, my chest was tightened to such a degree that I was preparing for some heart palpitations and a blood vessel bursting. 07:04 So I've now taken a few deep breaths. 07:06 Zen. 07:07 And I'm sure my rage will build over the course of the hour and we can get back to what was driving it. 07:11 But yeah, I mean, I think... 07:14 I guess it depends on what you mean by happen. 07:17 Um, I think that whether impeach, whether he actually gets impeached again and whether they go through the process depends largely on Trump on what he does. 07:26 Um, I think that the, the prospect of it, in addition to the prospect of prosecution is what is what drove the hostage video yesterday. 07:35 Um, I think that, uh, 07:38 Republicans, with the exception of maybe Adam Kinzinger, one or two others, I think are going to be reluctant to want to go through it again unless he forces their hand. 07:50 I think that Joe Biden is going to be pretty reluctant to want in Congress to be dealing with this come January 21, you know. 07:59 uh, he's got a pretty major crisis that he's got to deal with. 08:02 Um, so with all those factors, um, it seems to me like this is something that could be rushed through. 08:09 And I think really almost will be rushed through if, if, you know, it's sort of like a sword of Damocles hanging over the president's head, I think. 08:17 And I think that the president's behavior is the thing that is most likely to drive it at this point. 08:23 Um, 08:24 But I don't think that there's a 0% chance that it happens even if he stays quiet. 08:29 But I think the chance is rather low if there's not another incident. 08:34 Charlie Sykes Of being removed or being impeached? 08:37 Tim Miller Yeah, of their being holding an impeachment vote. 08:40 And I mean, they're going to just do an impeachment vote without the removal and without the trial. 08:47 I mean, maybe I'm for that. 08:49 If they do it, that's great. 08:50 I just, I don't know what the... 08:53 Charlie Sykes I think that's the most likely scenario at this point. 08:56 You do the impeachment vote in the House of Representatives. 08:58 You don't actually have the trial, but what you do then have is you have the hammer to break the glass in an emergency. 09:04 It is remarkable, though, how the scope of the people just jumping. 09:11 I mean, you have Bill Barr, Lindsey Graham, Nikki Haley, your friend Nikki Haley. 09:17 And by the way, that's in quotation marks. 09:19 She says that Trump's actions will be judged harshly by history. 09:22 You have Elaine Chao, Betsy DeVos resigning. 09:26 Shock, shock to find out they've been working for a sociopath. 09:30 You saw that the former... 09:31 communications director uh elissa farah who just stepped down last oh yeah she's been tweeting at me so good we can we can she said that trump should seriously consider resigning thinks the country would be safer under president uh pence yeah these national security officials telling axios that uh they and their colleagues uh would uh defy any requests they believe would put the nation at risk so john kelly former white house chief of staff saying he'd vote uh 09:59 to remove him. 10:01 Of course, you know, Larry Hogan of Maryland, Michael Chertoff, former Homeland Security Secretary under Bush. 10:08 And of course, the Wall Street Journal editorial board has finally, after four long years of turd polishing, seen enough calling on Trump to resign. 10:19 So your thoughts. 10:22 Tim Miller Well, we could do the whole hour on each of these people one at a time, so I'll defer to you on which one you want to take. 10:27 Charlie Sykes We could do it the whole weekend, you know? 10:29 Tim Miller Yeah, but I will start with just my big picture thoughts on all of these people, which this is going to be a... We're going to have the explicit rating on this podcast. 10:37 We're just going to warn people now, so I apologize if you're in the car with your children, but... 10:43 It's Nikki Haley whose actions are going to be looked on poorly by history. 10:49 And not just Donald Trump's. 10:52 And I don't... All of these folks are now doing the thing that we needed them to do over and over again. 11:01 That we needed them to do during the Republican primary... 11:04 that we needed them to do after the Access Hollywood tape, that we needed to do with impeachment the last time, that we needed them to do before this election, that we needed them to do when Trump should have been primaried. 11:15 I mean, I could go over the list. 11:17 Everybody needed to hold hands and jump together. 11:20 And now, after the writing is on the wall, when he's one Scaramucci away from leaving the White House, they're trying to do this to save their own reputations. 11:32 And I have to just say no. 11:34 I'm sorry. 11:35 I don't accept it. 11:37 I do not accept their comments that it is because a police officer died, because five people died, 11:46 That it's now Donald Trump's actions that were the bad ones. 11:50 Charlie, we all knew this was going to happen. 11:54 We've all said this was going to happen. 11:56 Look, you can go back to when he yelled at people in the audience in 2015. 12:02 And told people to kick their ass of the protesters. 12:06 All caps tweeting liberate Michigan. 12:08 He didn't accept the results of the Iowa caucus. 12:10 He didn't accept the results of the 2016 election when he fucking won. 12:14 Okay? 12:15 He's been doing this coup for two months now. 12:18 They just wanted to let him blow off some steam. 12:21 They didn't think it was going to be a big deal. 12:23 The day before five people died at the Capitol, two Republicans were running for Senate on a pro-coup platform. 12:33 They had a rally where Donald Trump called for a coup, where the first sentence out of Kelly Loeffler's mouth was, we're going to get the coup done. 12:41 And everybody cheered. 12:45 And then the next day they have a riot and people die. 12:49 And all of these people who supported everything up until the night before now are like, Ooh, it's really Donald Trump's rhetoric that it's gone too far. 13:00 Fuck you. 13:01 So come on. 13:03 Are you serious? 13:04 Are you serious? 13:05 And then I have to, then everybody, you know, has to be like, yes, thank you. 13:09 Thank you. 13:10 Alyssa Farah and Bill Barr and Nikki Haley. 13:13 This is on them. 13:16 Charlie Sykes So in the first, you mentioned, I think, the key thing here. 13:19 And every day I try to go through what's the chaff, what's the wheat in terms of the news, figuring out what actually makes a difference. 13:29 And, you know, I mean, there's a lot of things. 13:30 I mean, is it Nancy Pelosi? 13:32 And, you know, is it Nancy Pelosi calling for Trump's removal? 13:38 Was it that sort of, you know, Disney animatronic speech that Donald Trump gave last night where he sort of conceded, not conceded? 13:45 You know what? 13:47 I think the one thing that is hanging over everything right now at this moment are the deaths, is that five people died and that you can't spin it anymore when you have a Capitol Police officer whose head was bashed in, who was murdered by rioters. 14:05 you know, during, during this, uh, this, this insurrection, you know, that he, that he, that he died in the line of duty. 14:11 I mean, this, this takes all the people who are in denial. 14:15 You, you, you saw that, that there was this, there's multiple, you know, the right wing media ecosystem, Trump, uh, spin was, uh, okay, well, it wasn't that bad. 14:24 It was just tourists. 14:25 You had Sean Davis from the federalist saying, oh, these people, you know, they didn't know they weren't allowed in and they just sort of wandered in and, you know, Ben Dominic, uh, 14:33 From the from the federalists saying, yeah, he wasn't really bothered by this because, you know, the the Capitol really wasn't that sacred. 14:41 And, you know, other people saying, well, it was mainly, you know, peaceful protest and really no different than Black Lives Matter. 14:48 Well, when you have a dead police, when you have five dead people. 14:52 That just blows away all of the attempts to minimize it. 14:55 The Antifa infiltrators is just complete bullshit. 15:00 It turns out that Matt Gaetz and the Washington Times were just lying about all of that. 15:04 And I think this is a huge, huge problem. 15:09 for anyone that was going to rationalize the president's behavior. 15:14 Because remember, this is the movement for law and order. 15:16 This is the Blue Lives Matter. 15:18 Well, you know, screw that, right? 15:19 Because you people incited a riot that ended up with a dead cop. 15:23 Okay, so I want to play the animatronic Donald Trump. 15:27 Before you play the animatronic, I was trying to say one thing about this. 15:31 Absolutely, sure. 15:31 Tim Miller This is not, I'm sorry, these are not the first deaths, okay? 15:35 So they're the first ones that you can say, 15:38 You know, obviously Donald Trump said, let's march to the Capitol together and get wild. 15:43 So, I mean, you know, in this one, I think obviously the tie is more direct. 15:48 But the Pittsburgh synagogue shooting was based on, you know, anti-Semitic conspiracies that were going around in Donald Trump's circles. 16:01 The El Paso killer was, you know, a believer of this great replacement theory. 16:08 You know, obviously Christ Church in New Zealand. 16:12 So there have been other deaths of people who got into Q that, you know, just kind of went crazy. 16:20 Charlie Sykes And there could have been more. 16:22 You had Cesar Sayoc who, you know, sent out those bombs. 16:25 You had the plot, which again, you know, that anyone is surprised about this. 16:30 Remember, we had a plot to kidnap and murder the governor of Michigan. 16:34 Yes. 16:34 That was this year. 16:36 That was a direct line between the rhetoric and the politics of... Where was Nikki Haley then, by the way? 16:44 Tim Miller Did Nikki Haley say anything about the plot to kill the governor of Michigan? 16:48 I don't remember that. 16:49 Charlie Sykes Remember how Donald Trump tried to lower the temperature in Michigan? 16:53 Yeah. 16:53 Alyssa Farah stayed on, on staff, right? 16:57 She quit then. 16:57 I can't remember. 16:58 All caps. 16:59 Liberate Michigan. 17:01 Yeah. 17:01 So what the fuck did you people think was going to happen? 17:04 Really? 17:04 What were you expecting was going to happen? 17:06 Really? 17:07 You think about all the things you said, Oh, these are just his words. 17:10 These are just his tweets. 17:11 It's not going to lead to anything. 17:13 But now we have five dead people in the U S capital after an attack on 17:18 You know, incited by the president, the head of the executive branch against the legislative branch. 17:25 The president of the United States incited an attack on the legislative branch. 17:30 I mean, even the Wall Street Journal. 17:33 That's impeachable. 17:34 This is this is too far. 17:35 OK, let me play the animatronic Donald Trump. 17:38 Donald Trump I would like to begin by addressing the heinous attack on the United States Capitol. 17:43 Like all Americans, I am outraged by the violence, lawlessness, and mayhem. 17:49 I immediately deployed the National Guard and federal law enforcement to secure the building and expel the intruders. 17:58 America is and must always be a nation of law and order. 18:03 The demonstrators who infiltrated the Capitol have defiled the seat of American democracy. 18:10 To those who engaged in the acts of violence and destruction, you do not represent our country. 18:16 And to those who broke the law, you will pay. 18:19 Charlie Sykes OK, just a reminder in case people forgot because it was like two days ago. 18:27 Trump put out a video while the mob was in the Capitol. 18:31 And remember, he said, we love you. 18:35 You're very special. 18:37 And then later, he seemed to justify the actions in a tweet writing, these are the things and events that happen when a sacred landslide election victory is so unceremoniously and viciously stripped away. 18:48 So that was the quote unquote new tone from Donald Trump. 18:52 And we know how this works, right, Tim? 18:54 It'll take about 18:55 10 minutes for him to be back doing the other stuff. 19:00 Give me your explanation for why he felt the need to come out. 19:05 By the way, there's a lot of his people who feel very betrayed by this. 19:08 I think it was Emerald Robinson tweeted out that he was throwing his supporters under the bus. 19:15 There are other folks that were really upset about his concession. 19:19 But, you know, there he is, the president of the United States, saying his people that he told to go to the Capitol and to fight. 19:27 Tim Miller Yeah, I think I love two things. 19:29 This quickly, I think that he did it because. 19:32 The one thing that has saved us throughout all this is this empty black hole in Donald Trump's heart where he does still kind of want to be loved. 19:41 And whenever he gets up to the edge of the plank and he puts his toe in the water, he tends to pull it back out. 19:47 If he's getting criticized too harshly or he's worried that he's going to get sued or in jail or impeached or whatever, he really didn't want to get impeached. 19:56 the first time. 19:56 I know that some people don't believe that, but he really genuinely didn't. 20:00 He knows branding. 20:01 He knows what it means to be the impeached president. 20:03 I think it was simple as that. 20:09 He felt the walls closing in and felt like he needed to calm it down. 20:12 We've been through this before. 20:13 He's done these hostage tapes before. 20:15 Then 48 hours later, real Donald comes back out. 20:20 I want to take maybe a counterintuitive position, which is 20:25 I agree with Emerald, actually. 20:28 He is betraying them. 20:30 The only reason that people, that the smart set of the Wall Street Journal ed board and all these idiots that missed this every step of the way, every Republican senator, every other conservative media outlet except us and the dispatch, the reason that they missed this is because they thought he was a clown. 20:49 My article about this, about how 20:52 You know, they took, Trump's voters took Trump, you know, seriously, not literally, the famous quote by Brad Todd and Selena Zito. 21:00 No, they, no, that was wrong. 21:02 They took him seriously and literally, okay? 21:06 It was the Trump enablers that thought he, that were treating him like he was a clown and that it was all a joke and that what he was saying wasn't a big deal, okay? 21:15 So if you were one of his supporters who is down, especially during the last year where 21:20 you know, you have been maybe isolated somewhat and you're down this online rabbit hole and you're reading everything that's happening on cue. 21:28 And every tweet you see from this insane Twitter feed is about how they're stealing this from us. 21:32 They're stealing their country from us. 21:33 They're, they're going to implement socialism. 21:36 You know, they're, they're going to put, you know, real Americans aren't going to be able to go to church, aren't going to be able to live their lives. 21:44 They're going to end, they're going to end Jesus and Christmas. 21:48 Like, 21:49 Eventually, people that believe that shit want to act on it, you know, and they want to say they want to stop that because that sounds really bad. 21:58 So then when he is telling them all that and then they finally take things into their own hands because the end is near. 22:06 I would also be upset if he's been like, actually, you guys went a little overboard. 22:11 They didn't go overboard. 22:13 Trump went overboard. 22:14 They acted logically, given what they were told. 22:17 Charlie Sykes They did. 22:18 There are some reports that Trump thought that they looked low class, that he was concerned about the aesthetics of it rather than what they actually did. 22:26 Tim Miller He wasn't concerned about the aesthetics when they were dancing backstage to Gloria. 22:30 Charlie Sykes If people haven't seen this, by the way, I'm, I'm a big Laura Brannigan fan. 22:35 I hope this doesn't, uh, they're, they, they are watching this and clearly kind of cheering it on, but here's the, here's the delicious part about this, which, you know, the, the reason why we actually have this very damaging, very damning video of the president, you know, you know, cheering on this, this, this protest is because, you know, his idiot son, Don Jr. posted it online. 22:58 I mean, 23:00 OK, everybody's got to read this Tim Alberta piece in Politico. 23:03 Do you see this where he talks about makes the exact point you're making? 23:06 This was all four years in the making. 23:09 He said, I spent the last election cycle immersed in the metastasizing paranoia behind Wednesday's assault on Congress. 23:15 Nobody should be surprised by what happened. 23:18 Right wing propaganda outlets like The Federalist and OAN churned out deceptive content framing the election as obviously corrupt. 23:27 The Republican National Committee itself hosted disgraced lawyer Sidney Powell for a sanctioned news conference that bordered on clinically insane. 23:37 And then he makes this really scary point. 23:39 He said, you know, the fringe of our politics no longer exists. 23:43 What he means is that, you know, the line between the you know, that what's happened is the democratization of information exists. 23:53 has basically meant that there's no longer any buffer between mainstream thought and the extreme crackpot elements of our politics. 24:03 And that's really the scary part about that. 24:05 So when we're talking about the enablers or the people who incited this, yes, Donald Trump. 24:10 But also, all of the media outlets and Fox, I'd throw Fox News in there as well, all of those folks that went along, not to mention the Josh Hollys and Ted Cruz. 24:21 You want to talk about Josh Holley and Ted Cruz, by the way? 24:23 Tim Miller Yeah, can I start? 24:25 That's easy pickings. 24:26 I want to start with Mitch McConnell and Tom Cotton, because I saw a comment yesterday that really angered me, which was that 24:35 um, from Ari Fleischer that congratulated Mitch McConnell and, and Tom Cotton for getting this thing right from the start, uh, because they didn't sign on to Ted Cruz and Josh Hawley's letter. 24:46 So, so we can get to Ted Cruz and Josh Hawley's letter, but I'm sorry. 24:51 When was the start? 24:53 I don't understand when the start was, was the start like two hours before the policeman died? 24:57 Because, uh, you know, the Gabe Sherman or the, excuse me, the Brad Raffensperger tape, uh, 25:05 You know, where Donald Trump was trying to steal the election and ask Brad Raffensperger to find votes for him. 25:10 That was Sunday. 25:11 OK, that was right. 25:13 Yeah. 25:13 Today's Wednesday. 25:14 That was on Sunday. 25:15 So I don't remember Tom Cotton and Mitch McConnell calling for impeachment on Sunday when Donald Trump was trying to steal the election and pressure elected officials to find votes that weren't there. 25:26 I don't know. 25:27 Maybe I just missed the Senate majority leader calling for impeachment on Sunday. 25:31 But I think he was quiet because he wanted to stay majority leader and that there was a Senate election two days later in Georgia. 25:37 And that finally, once he'd already lost his power, he had the balls to say something on the... 25:42 Senate floor. 25:44 And now, you know, people want to act like this is his finest moment or whatever the national review called it. 25:48 So, uh, you know, I mean, I just like Holly and Cruz are a completely different category because they're trying to go for 2024. 25:55 Um, but, uh, but this is, this was, this was everyone. 26:00 And, you know, my crew, the thing with Cruz is he was asked for the Dallas paper. 26:04 If he would do it again, knowing what he knows, he said, yes. 26:09 Charlie Sykes I have a soundbite from Ted Cruz, but your point is right in terms of Mitch McConnell. 26:15 What do you mean right from the beginning? 26:17 And a couple of things on Georgia, the sort of scattered reaction here. 26:22 Remember, it was Gabriel. 26:24 It was Gabe Sterling who was one of the top election officials who... 26:27 gave that passionate press conference a few weeks ago, pleading with the president, your rhetoric is going to get people killed. 26:34 Do you remember that? 26:35 He specifically said, Mr. President, you're setting fire. 26:43 You don't understand how bad it is. 26:46 Or if you do understand it, you need to stop doing it. 26:49 People will die. 26:50 So this, again, the warnings were out there. 26:53 They were very high profile warnings. 26:55 And let's go back to Mitch McConnell. 26:57 Because I want to actually run the tape back way further than you. 27:00 Remember that famous quote right after the election in the Washington Post where one senior Republican official tells the Washington Post, what's the downside for humoring him for this for a little bit of time? 27:14 No one seriously thinks the results will change. 27:17 Tim Miller I actually saved that because I have it in front of me. 27:20 Charlie Sykes What is the... Oh, wait, no, you have it. 27:22 Yeah, what is the down... 27:23 He went golfing this week, and it's not like he's plotting how to prevent Joe Biden from taking power on January 20th. 27:29 He's tweeting about filing some lawsuits. 27:31 Those lawsuits will fail. 27:33 Then he'll tweet some more about how the election was stolen, and then he'll leave. 27:36 Well... 27:37 No, that was the calculation. 27:39 Of course, that was the calculation that that Mitch McConnell made right away. 27:43 Now, he eventually. 27:44 Tim Miller I just want to just really quick interrupt. 27:45 Is that this is a fun aside? 27:47 Is that the worst macabre fun? 27:50 Is that the worst background quote in history? 27:52 Yeah, it may. 27:53 I mean, I would I would challenge the listeners to find a worse background quote in history than what is the downside for humoring him a few weeks before their five deaths on the Capitol. 28:03 Charlie Sykes OK, but this is familiar to us, Tim, because over the last four years, how many times have people really smart people told you and I? 28:09 Oh, gosh, you know, come on. 28:11 What's what's the point? 28:13 You know, you know, you shouldn't sweat it. 28:15 You should chill out a little bit. 28:16 OK, so we're going to get these judges. 28:18 We're going to get the tax cuts. 28:19 We're going to get this. 28:20 You shouldn't care about Charlottesville. 28:22 You shouldn't care about the Muslim ban. 28:23 You shouldn't care about the corruption. 28:24 You shouldn't care about the kids in cages and all that. 28:27 Come on. 28:27 Just the tweets. 28:29 Tim Miller Was there ever a bigger lie that it's just the tweets? 28:32 I mean, besides the fact that it wasn't just the tweets, even if it was just the tweets, here we are. 28:37 I mean, the tweets just by themselves have led to what we saw on Wednesday. 28:43 Charlie Sykes So if Mitch McConnell and all of the Republicans had immediately on December, when did they declare him the victor? 28:49 It was December 7th or something, declared Joe Biden the victor. 28:53 If they had done what has been done in every other election season, it might have, it would certainly have not have enabled the insanity that grew and grew and grew. 29:05 They could have stopped it or slowed it down. 29:08 So, yeah, Mitch McConnell's decision to say, hey, let's just let him work through his feelings as if, you know, I mean, because his feelings are hurt. 29:17 So therefore, we shouldn't do anything. 29:19 It's just been disastrously mistaken. 29:22 And all of those same lines. 29:24 You know, think back to Election Day and the day after the election and where the Republican Party was. 29:32 They actually were in a pretty good position when you think about it. 29:36 OK, Trump was leaving. 29:37 OK, but, you know, they had picked up lots of seats in the House. 29:42 Mitch McConnell was still in charge of the U.S. Senate. 29:45 If Donald Trump would have behaved like a normal human being and maybe emphasized the rollout of the vaccine, if they would have done something serious to deal with stimulus and relief, OK, they would have lost the presidency. 30:04 But the Republican Party, you know, guys like Kevin McCarthy and Mitch McConnell would be able to look around and say, you know, this isn't so bad. 30:10 You know, we still control the Supreme Court. 30:12 We still got a story to tell. 30:15 We're probably going to win the House back in two years. 30:18 Really not so. 30:19 And look where they are right now. 30:22 I mean, this is this Chernobyl of political awfulness and 30:28 Tim Miller Yeah, Charlie, to this point, I just want to give you a counterfactual. 30:31 So let's say that David Perdue hung on to win. 30:37 Yeah. 30:37 Okay, let's say David Perdue hung on to win. 30:39 I mean, John House only won by 0.5%, so that was not inevitable. 30:44 Let's say that David Perdue hung on to win. 30:46 And let's say after that mob, after that rally, the Capitol Police and the National Guard had done the minimum to protect the Capitol. 30:56 And there had been maybe a skirmish outside. 30:59 They didn't breach the building. 31:01 One person had a heart attack, but they were one of the protesters. 31:08 It wasn't really a death. 31:09 It wasn't like a shooting or a cop dying. 31:12 um they were they marched through the streets chanting donald trump cheers them on the next day uh you know mike pence you know they they count the votes there's booing there's chanting there's some bottles thrown outside the capitol the next morning we all wake up and uh what is what's everybody saying that everybody's like see that wasn't so bad 31:37 All these people who are jumping off the ship, they're all still on. 31:41 Crosstalk They're all still on. 31:42 Tim Miller Mitch McConnell, everybody's still on the team. 31:45 There's not a single person who quit or who's jumped or who's criticized him in the last day that would not have stuck with him had everything been the same, but two things were different. 31:56 They didn't actually breach the Capitol, and David Perdue won, so the Republicans still had the Senate. 32:01 Charlie Sykes Yeah. 32:02 Yeah, I would like to say that the conscience of the Senate Republicans was really, really affected by everything that happened. 32:08 But I think that what really, really happened this week was they lost control in Georgia. 32:12 And you know the reaction would be very different. 32:15 Tim Miller Same with Merrick Zuckerberg, by the way, and Jack Dorsey, whose I think conscience was greatly affected by the fact that they're no longer going to have Republicans, you know, that it's now the Democrats that are going to be regulating them. 32:28 But just... 32:29 Charlie Sykes I'm going to come back a little bit later to talk about this. 32:33 All of the issues raised by the security breakdown, but as we were talking about, we've got to do some of the low-hanging fruit, Josh Hawley and Ted Cruz. 32:39 So as everybody is going through this reputation laundering, the people that are saying, you know, we were against him all along, or now we're shocked, shocked, shocked, and we can't, in good conscience, I cannot work for this man for the next 11 days or how many working days they have. 32:57 And then you had this 32:59 moment where Ted Cruz actually goes on this interview. 33:03 I don't even know where it is. 33:05 And he goes, I've been disagreeing with the president for the last four years. 33:09 So this is, take a deep breath here. 33:11 Okay. 33:12 Ted Cruz. 33:14 Ted Cruz Tom, I think you have to draw a distinction. 33:16 I agree with you that the president's language and rhetoric often goes too far. 33:22 I think yesterday in particular, the president's language and rhetoric crossed a line and it was reckless. 33:29 I disagree with it. 33:31 And I have disagreed with the president's language and rhetoric for the last four years and have said so many, many times. 33:40 Crosstalk Many, many times. 33:42 Go to hell. 33:44 Go to hell, Ted Cruz. 33:46 I don't know whether this is just gaslighting or it's like... 33:49 Tim Miller I think he really believes it. 33:50 Crosstalk I think he really convinced himself of this. 33:53 Charlie Sykes These are not the droids you're looking for. 33:55 I have boldly stood up against him. 33:58 Do you remember when I denounced him when he said my wife was ugly and he said my father killed JFK? 34:04 I mean, I've been a fierce critic of... Really? 34:08 Really? 34:09 Tim Miller I mean, remember, he doesn't see the tweets. 34:11 I'm sorry, he's been a critic of Donaldson. 34:13 And this is the whole thing. 34:15 They all spent the whole time pretending not to see what he was saying. 34:22 And look, I have to go back to the point that Cruz... 34:26 Ted Cruz, I think, has this pathological type behavior. 34:32 I said this, I was like, I think that this person needs to be in a mental institution, not in the Senate. 34:37 I mean, he created this fantasy in his head that there's voter fraud and that there's this widespread fraud that Ted Cruz needs to come in and save the day and uncover without actually doing any work, but just by vamping about it on the Senate floor. 34:55 And that is going to overturn the results of the election and maintain Donald Trump in power for a second term. 35:04 And this effort, which was a total fantasy, which was a total show, which was based on nothing, 35:12 It then results in a mob of people believing him, storming the Capitol, occupying the Capitol, five deaths. 35:19 The next day, and then after the people die, they go back into the Senate, and he goes along and votes for it. 35:27 Again, the imaginary fraud. 35:30 I mean, this is clinical. 35:33 Charlie Sykes No. 35:34 But it's happening. 35:35 I totally disagree with you on this. 35:37 There are people who are delusional and need treatment. 35:42 Ted Cruz is a charlatan. 35:48 He knows all this stuff. 35:50 He knew that that Texas lawsuit was bullshit. 35:53 He knows all this stuff. 35:54 He doesn't care. 35:56 And I actually think that he thinks that he can step in and be the successor to Donald Trump because he does share one thing with Donald Trump. 36:04 the absolute lack of shame of any kind. 36:07 I think that this is not clinical. 36:08 This is just fundamental dishonest. 36:11 This man is dishonest to the core and he knows how to play it. 36:16 And he's done this over and over again throughout his career where he makes promises. 36:21 He does things that he knows he can't achieve. 36:24 He raises people's expectation. 36:25 Remember, he became that big celebrity with the government shutdown and everything and 36:29 And Rush Limbaugh thought that, you know, he was the, you know, the next great conservative leader. 36:33 And everybody, you know, went to Cruz and said, what the fuck are you doing? 36:36 What is your end game? 36:37 How do you think you're actually going to win this? 36:38 And the answer was he had no idea. 36:40 He knew you all remember this. 36:42 He knew it was bogus and he did it anyway, because this is the way his deeply corrupt mind. 36:49 So I guess I'm trying to make a distinction here, Tim, between people who are crazy and people who are evil. 36:54 And in this particular case, there are a lot of crazies out there, but Ted Cruz is in the pure Dr. 36:59 Evil category. 37:00 Tim Miller Yeah, but I might be a level of evil that requires institutionalizing. 37:04 I don't know. 37:04 I'm not a doctor, but I just, I mean, because he did have a break. 37:08 Here's the difference though, by the way, is that we know Ted Cruz is capable of seeing reality because he had a break with Donald Trump in 2016 and he went up and gave what in retrospect was 37:20 Again, with the counterfactuals. 37:21 In retrospect, when he said, vote your conscience about Donald Trump, and then when he realized it was going to ruin his political career the next day and his internal polls came in and he had a mob of Texas Republicans yelling at him, he changed his tune. 37:35 But had he stuck with that? 37:37 Had he stuck with that, it would be Ted Cruz sitting here with us, right? 37:41 I'm saying, saying, saying, well, you know, Matt is selling with us per se, literally. 37:45 I don't know. 37:45 We'd want to talk to Ted Cruz, but you know what I mean? 37:47 And in general, he knew he saw it and then, and then he saw the reaction. 37:54 And so he never, he never made that mistake again, you know? 37:57 So that, I mean, that shows that it is, that just, that just makes your point really, not mine, that about how calculating it is that he, 38:04 Uh, he's capable. 38:06 Charlie Sykes He just, he just took, uh, you know, is totally capable. 38:10 And I think that's, what's really important to understand that when people say he's smart, he's really, really smart in sort of a Machiavellian evil kind of way. 38:18 But I mean, I, I've said this before, I have this picture, which I have now taken down from my wall because I can't take it anymore. 38:23 The picture of me with Ted Cruz back in April of 19 of, uh, 2016, when I helped him win the Wisconsin primary, uh, 38:32 Even though I knew he was a snake. 38:34 Okay. 38:35 It was, he was, it was like the, you take the weapon at hand. 38:38 And so I'm shaking his hand saying, Hey, I will do any, you know, and, and, and, and his wife, Heidi's right next to me. 38:43 And it's like, I will do anything possible to get you elected. 38:45 I said, Oh man, fuck me. 38:47 You know, I mean, after all this, but here's the, the weird part about it, as you know, 38:53 among the other dark moments in my past was was ron johnson and ron johnson in his first two years was it was i'm i'm telling you it was a different guy and one of the things that really motivated him and he and i talked about a lot was what a total asshole ted cruz was how dishonest ted cruz was now ron johnson's elected a basically a tea party agenda i mean he's out there you know against obamacare um 39:20 very much against debt spending and everything. 39:22 And yet he recognized early on that Ted Cruz was completely dishonest, that he was a charlatan. 39:29 There was a reason why Ted Cruz was the most hated man in the Senate. 39:33 And I remember at one point, 39:35 Johnson went on Mark Levin's radio show and he was saying, look, this this filibuster makes no sense because we're not going to be able to succeed. 39:44 The Democrats are not going to give us what we want. 39:46 So this really has no point to it whatsoever. 39:48 Mark Levin was beating up on Johnson and kicking him and calling him names and why he wasn't fighting more. 39:55 And I remember he was saying, like, you know, there's a lot of crazy out there. 39:58 And it was part of my relationship with Johnson was understanding how evil Ted Cruz was. 40:05 Now, here's the flip side. 40:07 Ted Cruz is still evil and a charlatan, but it's Ron Johnson who's become utterly delusional. 40:14 And that's the weird part. 40:16 Boy, I've gone off track here. 40:19 We all should have known this, right? 40:23 Tim Miller Yeah. 40:24 And, you know, again, sure, I guess. 40:27 I thought all those decisions were logical, though, right? 40:30 I mean, that's what you're saying, what you're reading about, about going along with Ted Cruz in the Wisconsin primary, even though you knew he was a snake, is that it's because of how obvious 40:41 unpresidential Donald Trump was in the extreme, right? 40:47 It was so obvious that this man was not capable of the job. 40:50 It was so obvious how potentially dangerous the tail risks were going to be with him that it was like, 40:56 I don't know. 40:57 I mean, I guess I'll have to deal with Ted Cruz. 40:59 I guess I'll have to deal with Hillary Clinton. 41:01 Those are the choices made by people who, you know, had, you know, who had functioning brains and were able to see what Donald Trump was and then were able to process what the, you know, what that meant, like, and what you had to do in response to dealing with that. 41:20 And so... 41:20 Charlie Sykes Yeah. 41:22 And that's where everybody else failed. 41:24 And the big flaw was, and I should have known this back then, and you still have the scars from 2016 as well, was I was figuring that when it came down to a one-on-one, there's no way that Trump could win. 41:38 But the problem was, 41:39 that if it was one-on-one with Ted Cruz, that as awful as Donald Trump was, Ted Cruz was more deeply and widely loathed. 41:47 So let's talk about Josh Hawley. 41:49 He had a shitty day yesterday. 41:50 I mean, his really, really bad day. 41:52 Okay, so his publisher rescinded his book deal. 41:56 His top donor, the guy who basically financed his campaigns, is now calling for him to be censured. 42:02 His home state newspapers, the Kansas City Star and the St. Louis Post-Dispatch, are both calling for his resignation. 42:08 Kansas City Star saying that he has blood on his hands. 42:12 Mizzou law students are calling for his resignation. 42:16 John Danforth, the former senator, who had been a supporter of his, one of his mentors, calls his support of... 42:24 His support, the biggest mistake of his life. 42:28 And his colleagues are basically going, yeah, Josh, who? 42:32 So, I mean, you know, this headline in the St. Louis Post-Dispatch editorial, Holly should resign. 42:39 Silent enablers must now. 42:41 publicly, they condemn Trumpism. 42:44 So this week was supposed to be the week that Josh Hawley launched Hawley 2024. 42:50 How's it going? 42:51 Tim Miller Yeah, he's on the cover of the Washington Examiner magazine. 42:53 Oops, a little puff piece. 42:57 I'm not there. 42:59 I'm not certain yet that... 43:03 He's blown himself up completely with the Republican voters. 43:06 I think that the dust still remains to be settled with that. 43:10 Again, I lived through, we all lived through the Access Hollywood tape. 43:17 Everybody went against Trump then. 43:19 In the end of the day, the voters basically said, we don't actually care. 43:23 Is this different than that? 43:25 Yes, there are deaths. 43:28 Can we be 100% sure that the voters won't say, 43:32 We kind of actually think that it's Mitch McConnell and Tom Cotton who are the cucks. 43:37 And we sort of like what Josh Hawley and Ted Cruz and Donald Trump were doing. 43:41 I think that's very much still a possibility. 43:43 So as far as 2024 is going, I don't know that he did that. 43:47 I think what he has done is exposed himself as being... 43:52 a complete fraud and deeply, deeply unserious and phony. 43:59 And I think that that is going to hurt him with his Senate colleagues over the next two years where he's going to be very unpopular. 44:05 The rage eyes that Mitt Romney was giving at him as he was 44:09 still speaking about his fake coup attempt after the, after the people had died and the Capitol had been occupied was, you know, is a, is, is a meme for the centuries. 44:19 And, and, you know, I think that, you know, his little feet, you know, power, white power fist that he was giving outside the Capitol to, to the people. 44:28 I mean, it's just all embarrassing and deeply embarrassing to, to anybody, you know, who, you know, 44:35 who is outside of the Trump cult. 44:39 So the question is, you know, what, what kind of what the voters think and how, how things, how things bubble up. 44:46 And I think that within, you know, elite circles, if you will, to the extent that matters, I think he's going to be deeply shamed. 44:53 And I think that he revealed a lot about himself that was, that we all are pretty sure about, by the way, but that, that, you know, his kind of, 45:00 just very scared, embarrassed, half-hearted attempt to continue the coup after the Capitol was occupied was just a moment of historic weakness and shame that he is going to have. 45:13 And that fist picture is going to be something that follows him throughout the rest of his career, honestly. 45:18 Charlie Sykes Yeah. 45:18 And you think about it, Ted Cruz and Josh Hawley, the most Trumpist of the 2024 prospects, had the worst week, of course. 45:27 You know, you do have the Tom Cottons who are still pretty Trumpy, but I don't know. 45:30 I where do you come down on all of the on on Trump 2024? 45:35 Because, you know, we've talked about this in the past where Trump is forever that if he announces he's running again, he freezes the the race. 45:43 He'd be the odds on favor to get nomination. 45:46 I don't think that's true anymore. 45:48 I think this has been tremendously damaging for him. 45:51 I think that, and I think that the next 12 days could make it even worse. 45:55 I'm trying to imagine a scenario in which Donald Trump becomes more popular than he is, you know, that does something that turns things around. 46:03 I mean, there might be some rallying around if they try to impeach him, but, um, I, I think that's done. 46:09 I, I just, I, I think that this week did make a difference and that Donald, Donald Trump's viability as, as, uh, as a candidate for four more years, uh, 46:19 I don't know. 46:22 Tim Miller I'm not a no on that one. 46:25 We'll see. 46:25 Again, I think the impeachment, we kind of cut that conversation at the beginning. 46:29 Again, if he is impeached and removed, which I don't think is a 0% chance at all, I think it's possible. 46:36 I went through the Senate... 46:39 I mean, again, I don't think a 0% chance, but if it happens, he can't run again, right? 46:44 Yeah, that's not going to happen. 46:45 So, I mean, I looked through the Republican Senate roster last night, and I had trouble getting up past seven votes. 46:52 So, I don't really think it's going to happen, but I think that's possible. 46:55 possible um i think that legal ramifications are obviously very possible so so i think that you know 2024 could get derailed by by by these kind of outside forces outside the voters hands and there's also criminal charges as well yeah exactly which i think is is more likely so yeah 47:15 I guess I'm just saying, let's say that he survives all that. 47:20 Let's say that this is just in the hands of the voters. 47:24 I'm just sitting here right now this morning, January 8th, 2020. 47:28 I just think he's the favorite. 47:30 I think that if there was... 47:33 I think, you know, if he survives all the other stuff, now the other stuff, that's a big if, but I just think the voters are still with him. 47:39 Charlie Sykes Nah, you know what? 47:40 Okay. 47:41 I know why you're saying that because we have, you know, had this branded on us, but I do think, and again, this is why I come back to the fact that 47:50 we have a dead police officer in the Capitol. 47:52 This, this is something that, that he, it's going to be very hard for him to shake. 47:56 I don't see him coming. 47:57 Okay. 47:57 Let's talk about this, the security failure. 47:59 There's two things here that are just mind boggling. 48:02 And I can't really, I mean, I'm really kind of obsessed about number one, why it broke down so badly. 48:10 Who is responsible for not having the national guard that we're getting multiple stories, including stories that the Capitol police and the city of, of, of Washington refused support. 48:20 for them, in which case the mayor of Washington, I think, should resign, but also the double standard. 48:25 And I do think it's legitimate for people to say, you know, if if if these had been black protesters, they would not have been treated remotely in the same way as the protesters. 48:38 But again, I wasn't there. 48:39 What is what's what's your sense? 48:43 Tim Miller I want to be very cautious on this. 48:48 I think that there is good reason to believe that 48:52 you know, certain police officers were, you know, treated the MAGA protesters with much more discretion than with black protesters. 49:02 I think particularly in the counterfactual where it's a black riot inside the Capitol, I think you're seeing a much more aggressive policing. 49:09 So I think there's no doubt about that. 49:12 Some people have taken that to another extreme, which is like the Capitol Police is collaborating with them. 49:19 And I... 49:19 I haven't seen a lot of proof of that. 49:22 I think that what is the more likely explanation is that the Capitol Police is like the TSA of the police. 49:32 This is not an anti-riot outfit over there. 49:35 This is a failure. 49:37 I certainly think it was a failure from the White House who didn't 49:40 who chose not to act because they didn't want to militarize the actions against their own supporters. 49:45 So absolutely, that's a fair criticism. 49:48 But some of the charges about the police themselves, I think that they were overwhelmed, man. 49:52 And I think that there were a lot of instances last summer that we saw where there were some instances, of course, of just disgusting police brutality, disgusting violence. 50:01 But there were other instances where, to me, where police looked overwhelmed and were kind of letting, you know, vandalism and stuff happen just because, you know, they were just trying to, you know, not make the situation worse. 50:13 So I think that there are two things can be the same, right? 50:16 That, of course, you know, a black, you know, instigated riot outside the Capitol, occupying the Capitol, they would be treated more harshly. 50:24 I don't think, I also think an explanation is, 50:29 for this is that these guys were just completely, completely overwhelmed and were just trying to, you know, contain and manage it until the, until the, you know, reserves came in and the reserves came in late, according to Larry Hogan, because the, the, the administration slow walked it. 50:46 So absolutely shame on them and shame everybody that worked as part of that. 50:51 So, so that would be like the distinction I would draw. 50:53 Charlie Sykes i think everybody needs to be held accountable for this and i'm uh pretty certain that i i think this investigation is going to be extraordinary my i guess i have a little bit of anxiety now whether or not they're going to get it right uh for the inauguration which is just 12 days away because i have to tell you that i was on a show this morning i think i mentioned before we started the podcast where somebody i'm not going to try to beat on somebody was saying that 51:18 You know, we're in this era of good. 51:20 We're about to go into an era of good feeling where people are going to be able to, you know, embrace the new politics of bipartisan decency. 51:29 And this has broken the fever. 51:31 And I had to say, I'd like to think that's true, but I don't think it's true. 51:36 You look at the social media that made it very clear that there was going to be violence on the 6th. 51:41 And a lot of these folks, they are not accepting reality. 51:45 They are talking about revolution. 51:47 They are talking about civil war. 51:49 They are talking about how to smuggle guns into Washington, D.C. 51:51 This is not paranoia. 51:53 This is out there. 51:54 And it's not being done on the dark web. 51:56 It's being done on just it's there if you would look at it. 51:59 And that's one of the remarkable things about the failure. 52:03 Is there was no secret about what was coming on the 6th. 52:07 And that was a joint session of Congress. 52:10 The president of the United States was tweeting out, make sure you come. 52:13 It's going to be wild. 52:15 So how anyone didn't understand what was going to happen. 52:18 But again, January 20th. 52:19 Tim Miller And there was some violence the night before. 52:21 Remember, there was the burning of the Black Lives Matter flag. 52:25 And so, no, I do not want to be misinterpreted on that. 52:29 Absolutely. 52:30 And just an utter failure of planning, probably intentional from this administration because they did not want, you know, scenes of, you know, the scenes that we saw this summer with the military police out and, you know, the scenes we saw in Lafayette Park. 52:43 So I absolutely think that there were ill intentions from the Trump administration. 52:46 Yeah, absolutely. 52:48 Charlie Sykes There might be a counterfactual explanation as well, and we're now speculating, okay? 52:52 Sure. 52:53 So I don't know, which is that it was the city, the Washington officials who were afraid of misconduct by the feds, who were afraid to do this, who might have, look, we just don't know. 53:09 I guess my point is, and I've said this over and over again, because I do think we live in these bubbles of 53:14 If you go on, if you track some of the folks that have been tracked right wing conspiracy theory at media, one thing that will strike you immediately is that there are still people or certainly have been people. 53:31 And a lot of them who are in complete denial, they really did think that Donald Trump was going to stay president. 53:38 They really did not think that Joe. 53:41 I mean, they believe this. 53:43 They believe it deeply to the extent that the word sincerely applies here at all. 53:48 And so they are angry. 53:51 They are shocked. 53:52 They are disillusioned. 53:54 And the fear has to be that they are very radicalized about all this. 53:59 It's interesting because the night before January 6th, Denver Riggleman, the former congressman for Virginia, was ousted by one of the crazy crackpot theories. 54:10 But he's got a long background in military intelligence and conspiracy theories. 54:14 He tweeted out that he was really, really worried that the combination of the Georgia, the defeat in Georgia and what was about to happen in the Capitol on January 6th was going to lead to a real explosion. 54:29 And I think he was dead on about that. 54:32 And so for people who think that it's over now, that everyone is shocked, everyone's going, well, we'll never do that again. 54:40 Not necessarily. 54:43 Not necessary. 54:44 Tim Miller No, no. 54:45 I mean, again, look at the bottom up and look at, you know, our media ecosystem. 54:50 I mean, we've been writing about this in the book and this is going to be continuing to be, you know, something that I'm doing and others over the next year and years is, you know, look at where these guys are now getting information this morning from Rush Limbaugh. 55:02 Yesterday, who's who's comparing them to Patrick Henry and from the Federalist that is, you know, talking about how, oh, this is everybody's overreacting. 55:13 You know, the left wing violence is worse. 55:15 And, you know, they on their on these, you know, on Parler and on the Donald.win and on all in all the all these groups. 55:23 Uh, you know, so yeah, I think that there will be, I think some people were shook by what happened for sure. 55:29 And, and, you know, I think the tail caught the dog, um, uh, a bit. 55:34 Uh, and so I think that will, um, you know, negate, you know, mitigate some of this, but, but, but no, I mean, I think this is a bottom up driven thing. 55:44 And until, uh, 55:45 you know, we fix the way that we're communicating to these folks until people that enable this take responsibility for it and actually try to make changes rather than just cover their ass. 55:58 Like, yeah, no, this is not the end. 56:00 Absolutely not. 56:01 Charlie Sykes Should we end on a high note, though, since this is our weekend podcast? 56:05 Tim Miller Do we have to? 56:07 Yeah, sure. 56:07 Charlie Sykes Well, my chest is constructed again, so yeah, it'd be nice to- I was figuring that spending an hour talking to me that you'd get all mellowed out. 56:15 You know, Charlie, you're right. 56:17 We won. 56:18 They lost. 56:20 We have been vindicated. 56:21 They have been exposed. 56:24 You know, I mean, this is this is I don't want to say, you know, schadenfreude here, but but man, it's it's it's way more than four hours now. 56:33 I mean, I'm serious. 56:34 OK, so how do you pronounce the name? 56:36 J.L. 56:36 Coven, the really brilliant comedian who does who does the the Donald Trump show. 56:43 Well, he does Donald Trump. 56:44 What can I say? 56:45 He's very talented. 56:47 And he has some thoughts about some of the figures, some of the speeches that we've been hearing this week. 56:52 So let's just end here. 56:55 And I'm just going to say thanks, Tim. 56:57 I really appreciate you coming back on. 56:58 Thank you, Charlie. 57:00 You know, we'll just understand that, you know, that at some moment, got to have a little champagne and say, we are on the right side of history. 57:09 Apparently, it turns out that history had a side and we were on the right side and didn't always necessarily feel, actually, it always felt that way. 57:16 Anyway, so thanks for coming on. 57:17 Thanks for listening to the Bulwark podcast. 57:19 We'll be back on Monday and we'll do this all over again. 57:22 Here is J.L. 57:24 Coven. 57:26 J.L. Cauvin did you see mitch mcconnell he sounded like he was gonna cry now they got crying chuck schumer talking you know with that whiny just total waste but mitch mcconnell i never thought a turtle could cry okay i thought they were you know turtles they're always very dry and believe me he's not a ninja turtle we actually lost to a ninja turtle in georgia last night rafael warnock okay he's a 57:53 He's a black priest wizard. 57:54 That's why they call him a Warnock. 57:56 That's like a male witch. 57:58 And he's a Raphael. 58:00 Okay. 58:00 That was the angry Ninja Turtle. 58:03 So now we got Wolverine Ted Cruz talking. 58:06 God, what a... 58:09 Even though he supports me, let's be honest. 58:11 What a bitch with an ugly wife and a presidential killing father. 58:16 That's right. 58:16 I said it while Ted Cruz is talking. 58:19 I'm still talking powerful Trump words about his family. 58:23 And he'll still defend me. 58:25 So the country's in trouble. 58:28 Mitch McConnell is crying out loud. 58:31 Little turtle tears down his crackly skin onto his shell of judges that I gave him. 58:40 Okay, so we'll see what happens, but I will be releasing the Mountain Dew Army later today. 58:45 And we're going to have the first Mountain Dew Code Red Civil War in Washington, D.C. 58:52 The streets of the swamp will run red. 58:56 With the bubbly, code red Mountain Dew. 58:59 Okay, so we'll see what happens. 59:01 But Mitch McConnell, I am not happy with you. 59:06 Ted Cruz, your beard now looks like some sort of Old West thing. 59:14 What a sad beard. 59:17 Okay, no, Mike, I'm not talking about Mother. 59:20 And then Mike Pence. 59:21 We'll see the ultimate betrayal from that. 59:25 From that, you know, he's, you know, a bottom is supposed to be sort of your, you can rely on it. 59:32 Okay. 59:33 But he hasn't been that kind of, there's no power in that bottom today in DC. 59:38 So, you know, if you see him in DuPont circle, tell him his president hates him and we'll see what happens.